#953 האם ישראל נלחמת בצורה מוסרית? | ד"ר רונן שובל VS ד"ר משואה שגיב

בפרק זה של הפודקאסט "על המשמעות" עו"ד תמיר דורטל מארח את ד"ר רונן שובל וד"ר משואה שגיב לדיבייט על מוסר, זהות ופילוסופיה של לחימה בצל המלחמה בעזה. 
האם ההומניזציה של אויבינו מסכנת את חיילי צה"ל בשדה הקרב? בדיון נוקב ויסודי, מציגים ד"ר שובל וד"ר שגיב שתי תפיסות עולם מנוגדות לגבי דרכה המוסרית של ישראל מול אויב אכזר. ד"ר שגיב טוענת כי שמירה על צלם אנוש ומחויבות לערכים אוניברסליים לצד ערכים פרטיקולריים-יהודיים הם חלק בלתי נפרד מעוצמתנו כחברה, ומזהירה מפני התבהמות ותחושת נקמה. מנגד, ד"ר שובל מציב ביקורת חריפה על הליברליזם הקלאסי שמנתק את האדם מהקשרו. לטענתו, מול אויב שפועל מתוך תיאולוגיה רדיקלית ותודעה דתית של "כת מוות", הפעלת כוח היא לא רק הכרח אלא פעולה מוסרית חיובית שנועדה לבער את הרע מן העולם.
השיחה נעה בין ניתוח מעמיק של התרבות המוסלמית הרדיקלית, דרך תפיסת קיר הברזל והרתעה לדורות, ועד לוויכוח סוער על הביקורת העצמית בחברה הישראלית – האם חקירות פנימיות כמו אלו בפרשת שדה תימן הן עדות למוסריותנו הגבוהה, או ביטוי של פתולוגיה, עין רעה ואוטו-אנטישמיות מבית?
בפרק זה תשמעו דיון פילוסופי-מעשי נדיר על קו התפר שבין ביטחון למוסר, ותלמדו איך תפיסות פילוסופיות עמוקות משפיעות באופן ישיר על ההחלטות המתקבלות בשדה הקרב ועל מדיניות החוץ של ישראל. האם ניתן לנצח במזרח התיכון בכלים מערביים? ואיך נשארים חברה מוסרית מבלי לסכן את קיומנו? הצטרפו להאזנה מרחיבת דעת.

00:00:00 האם הומניזציה של האויב מסכנת את החיילים?
00:05:41 שורש הבעיה בליברליזם והזהות היהודית
00:10:23 המחויבות הכפולה: עם ישראל וערכים אוניברסליים
00:16:32 אהבת האנושות מתחילה באהבת עצמך ומשפחתך
00:20:38 הפעלת כוח כדי לבער רע היא פעולה מוסרית
00:24:48 האם יש חפים מפשע בתוך רצועת עזה?
00:30:15 הצורך בהכרעה תודעתית לדורות מול חמאס
00:36:00 האיסלאם הרדיקלי ותפיסת דאר אל חרב
00:46:20 הסכמי אברהם ופתרון שתי המדינות
00:52:53 כיצד הלא-מודע הקולקטיבי הערבי מנהל את המציאות
01:03:16 תנועת הנפש של השמאל: ביקורת כהלקאה עצמית
01:10:09 דילמה בשטח: חייל צה"ל והילד הפלסטיני
01:18:20 פרשת שדה תימן וגבולות החקירה הפנימית
01:25:20 צבא ההגנה לישראל והצביעות בעולם המערבי (פרימיום)

#פודקאסט #על_המשמעות

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:33

And we have to do this.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

If Charlie isukhanli, Velakena Nitricha, Miyadli Rot, Velochev, Velo Ridbinyanim, Velo, Lo Loli istakel Shundovan, and Makomle Musarbes deakrav, Sharda Berbea laze, Sheyesh Mekhir, Litfisakazot, She Merit, En Makomle Musarbes de Akrav, a mishe muli who ha oyev sheli beregeshani osa humanizati la oyev shelly anime secanethaim shelly, loy holiot mola nichov, katava rutarbaisre, al ech machon hartman benashar shu taf, le sikun Khayalenuchanech, oyev keben e nosh and shelva.

SPEAKER_06 3:44

The Mudgash as Nagida Masha Marbot, Mudgash, Bekosim Shon Hartman, She Omnau Ben and Nosh Valisti Bosch.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

May Mastamazo Nikodata Motza, Nakudat Hamotza, She Bemilhama, Devarishon, Ani Meganala is Rachim Shelly, Vedavar Sheni, Anilasa Kenat Khalim Shell Shav, V Zelorxh Yashpukama Batim, Yesha Day Betaben Lumi, Babumi, Baday Baday She Megan, Alpeulot, Shegam Cola Lot Biltimorovim and Ahnullo, B Badina Ben Lumi and Dilim Ben Khapimi Pesha, Leven Shenam Khimipesha, Ben Moravim, Leven Sheenam Morovim, Veim Yesh Peulot She Yeshla Natz the Kamiv Sa H Bahen Yesh Anashim Shanifgaim, the Kashemme od Aval Avalze Zemutar Vzele Gitimi Ani Bichlalom de Brat Hsha Valadina Belomi, Kianaknu Lobekrach, Tsrehim Listakel, Raqaladina Bellumi, Shay Bogam Et Ghrim, Animistakelet, Alatzmenu, Alla Am Shelanu, Ala Yadu Chelanu, Alamusar Shelanu, Alma'a Nachnu, Dorshim, Vemetpim Atzmenu, Vizeloom Mer, She Imani Ma'ala Sheilah, Bekrachani Machlishotanu, Bekhrachani Yomat Rashima, Shell Dugmaot, Shem Midrash Breshit Rabba Maberal Yakovchesh Tesav, Vu Vuyarev Vu Khred Shema, Shemahu Yahreg, Veshema W Yahrog, Vamek the Varash Midl Khash Anachnu, She Akadosh Baruch, Elohim, Lomispeckrach, Bekarsh Anashim, Yutsa Dikimel and Trichim Lyti Sharim Vilachem, Gamal Anashim Nuraim, Aniloma Beret al Khash besofel the varzotihleta, Y Holyot, Shachlata Besufoch the Varzhatah Batimbe Azza, Anilohit Kachav, Holyot Zotya Achlata. Aval ani lomat slikale have vin, et ha ugasheget oneshmavet, et ha et ha anglithani atargamuta, eta gli eta ta' eta khidva, shebe chagigat haheres, et ha dehumanizatia, mitzelem e noshil anashim, gam shaani anikhoshevana khobot sad, anirohabim shelly, awalaniroabem gam ki anashim, shayeshla himselem enosh, shuv, the mer, shaani loh said mashemutalai. Avalaiimani khoshevudim, balay musari Yehudim, Balaychel Torat Israel, Lola a lot of the Sheilazot, Veta Mikirch, or sell and Nefishelano, Velamatspunchelano, Velaya Duchelanu, Hayavina a lot of the She Lazo Bena.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

And Hoshev a Keshel, the philosophy named Rim Shamaut, Adam. Then Joseph Mr. Pakistif Adam Pagashti Yudhi, Pagasti Sofati, Pakashi Germany, Pakashi America, Adam of Shadow Pagashi, Adam Hiksh. She said, October, the Kvut and Ashim, she lambda, but make sure Adam and Toby Shirchelo, but I'm not sure if you're a very good idea.

SPEAKER_06 9:57

Kevin, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

And you leak him, Vemarech, El Havayaba Ulam, Shelonotat, Lonatuabi, Kihelek Mihshir, and Pogeshita Rim Shelly and Zhuchel Litmo Zhina Kati, and he beta. So, I think we have to get a little bit of a very good thing. Animaskiba, Legambre. Liberalism antihumani.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Nahon, Hadmashmate, Zo Nekuda Hucha, a Mukabiotha liberalism, Zo Sibba, Lama Kutsocha, Nachoshvim, and Kutsota Matarcha Liberal Liberalism, Venisi Mizrachi, Katavelza Sociolog, Katavelza, Kvutocha, Hihi Le Liot, to be benefited. He lob and glit must speak to Vavima Beditai Vrichela Vazigamofaket Lyot. Haim Hem Bare Mavet or Bare Ha'im. Masha Anitri Khaled Milchamazot, Mikhina's Va'it, Vadaisha Alaila Asot. She Haim Himha Mehaki and Noshito Loh and He Bashut Hoshev, Zhut Lishpot.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

Okay. Elohim Nisal, Brit in Ben Adam, Kam Vam Pamim, Brittany, Am Ichad, She Orla Goim, Shraba Mot, and I'm not sure if you're not going to be able to do that. Russia, Shemeshbuch, Vemithab, Wehimot, Wekim Shelabi, We Holofanachim, Gamba Milhamaka Shabia, Lyot, Baraf Shelanu, Loshela Mshalanu, Shelp Zrachim Abritim, Befalug, America, Iraq, Venal Vechinal.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Avrogoda and Sakan Lak Shotel Hashiah, Rakshiahat, and Islihas Likatamir Rakshniakat Lak Shotlecha, Ani Anigilhama Hashashali. A Hashasheli Are Animaskimaitha Bekol Mila Shaata Amarthav. Animaskimitha Animat the Alhabh. Lorak shel me comach mehemyorim, elagam shel colaize Gromlaem Lir Totlat Mipo, Vulaizo Mershanachno de Berba Safashelamizra Thom Biglach Besafaker Lomvinpo, as ima Nachnu, Hainu, Beatzmenu, Pnima, Osimet Av Khanash Atao se, Ben Mechabel, Ben Me Orav, Leven andashim, Shem Khapimi Pesha Azai Transma Anachno Simet.

SPEAKER_06 23:20

Lakshotal, Katati. Heres Muchlat, Havihot, Biturbitoni, Hochello, Avalakudana, yen it's a horn at the Kama. Loch like my debate of Shirwin com Tovlin comb, the Gamatara Tar, Tavnikama Day Domot, the Rao, the Holmes, the Massafash, just look at Lucia.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Should I have a lot of people who are not going to be able to do that? Option, optimize Anachmusima America, Japan, said Germania, you should have him as far as transfer. If Shalh Shovel Zabsurashov, if Shal Lloyd Zeveloids, Vindamian Cheshire Proparim.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Afad Lochoshev shit makes up Afekad Loh Beser Optiazu.

unknown 28:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

So yesh erh kyumi a strategy. A rochvach, lemonat Israel, Lama Yudi, Shay Ruaz Istay, Aliba Shaitat Shaitan. She has vinuced, Lam, Yudibarzo, Michalemir, Ledorot. The Huni Ledorot, the Mashani. But we have to be able to get a bad thing. As we have to do, it's a very good thing. Skeptico, a Bay law Islamity, Bonase, Milliard Muslims, Radical, okay? Daryl Islam, the reverse Daryl Kharab. Kulamba Peripheria. Kulam Peripheria. Misgad Kordova. Well, liberalization. And shum sikuya Adam, Adam. You tell me, the Lokim Lom Sugalimot Banashim bin Adam, Shekhizbala Lloyd's Tariff, Bashivaba October, the Kimaik Patl Sunim Yamutu, Hemshim, the Sunni, and Shall Rogutam. Ashui, Sheem is not a good thing, and skeptics. And the very team I am It Kula Mamatim Ferim can you tell you, Khaza, Nilek Biah, Venika, Taki Tola Machino.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

La itutim, eh Klape Pnima Bidyuk Biglal, Shenamanigim Shalanou Yesh, Ledati, Hammon Mashmaut, Beech, Haam, Margish, Bech Haam, Mit Nahil. Democrat is dov, no? Canov?

SPEAKER_06 48:00

You talk about democratia?

SPEAKER_01 48:01

No. Beside the manigim. Add Kama the Poger, but I'm not sure. Gamla Genalinu, Gamla Lechetanu, Gamla Sotitanu Dvarimsoya.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

As any anime. Lama, at M sirahut, at M Sirahut. Yeshid ah Lochot Mimi Tanu, Aliskemim, Vem Los Sim liberalizatia, vem lomitagim, Yafel Binance. Raf show normali. Rafshu e Gioni. League Lebn Adam, Alti Ubina Dam, Zelo Rafegioni.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

The normali Zegioni, Z Rafegioni, Sevir, Sababa?

SPEAKER_03 50:10

Lobiglal uh Dutti, and the Beglezh is Lobria. Mamash Nat Nefish Lobria. Lotim Nigzar Leno a la rogue, the lotavar.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

No.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

The var shall drag. The not necessarily.

SPEAKER_06 51:23

She's like, uh, and the skill.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

Ken. Yep. We mean collective, and a little collective as a mudah. Avalagichasibash at Varim Lomitrachim, Kmo Shit, Ledamian Sh and Yhala Sot Scam Shalom in Aravim Beaza, which is the Temizhutov, and the M. Locashur Naguchel Ben Gvir Kazoacherit, Harbeyot Teramuko, Shun Siutz Lorelevantilagab, Ki at Fisata Mitsuchilaim, and Yeshle Mishkafime Sumimshakim Tamitsiut, Shani Bichalobatu, Shemishal Baulama Ravio de Miz Ben Gvir Kiluz, Anilo de Misarap, Anil I Sarb, a bit on Pinimad Balama Ravi, Anil Fachlo de Anilo de Holo Delagita Shem Shlo, and because she delegita managem dino, Venikishan Adamshu Mod Munach by Nanimale, V Manishard Shavakurimla in a Sichel Bacharin, Sabsadakizelot Mashir Davaraz, and it's lona sell at Menuana Haven Iraqnetovim, Mrak ni Musarim, or Mrachnita Azikre. Gami Mainukulanu Aristocratim Britim Mesugoshil Abba Evan, the lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

Ma Abicorat Vada. Sir Tutkazil Mapapolit, and the mok, amok, a mok shall be correct at Smit, as Bahikera ze, animistek anikhoshevicilim shel benguir pogimbano, Bazira Belomit, Aval Masha Khashov lizazirapnimid V is the Kluchelanu Pnima. Bemakbil Leze Shov Anilo andi Poparim byanaimalvai, Anikhoshev Khashov the Khavl Khlom, Lakhlom Zheshov, Khaza Shneak Khazan Kadima Zachuv, eh animach, Lishta meshbila shalom shov a filushaniodat, shalom ima Palestinium, Loikre, Khola Nir e Beshnot Khayav Bowshar de Bergamalama, Vemavule, Zhadin Khoshev Khashov, La Khlom Shalom Velda Bershalom, Bemakbil and Ishoelet, B of Bertz and Srehimliota Koalitzio Chalano, Imiachim Nachhol Islam Matun, or Aim Nachon Litchot Kulam Velomar Kola Ravimotovar, End Varkaz Matun, Endvarkaze Islam Chef Charla Avoditon, or Aravim Chef Charla Avoditan, Alta Gidulish, Fisakazot Batziburiota Israel, and the M. Baadayesh, Fisakazot Batziburiota Israelit Vilchan, Aniot Nuat Mvina Nilom Merit, and Dvarima, Yelanuze Olam Muflapo, Avalma Anachnu, Dor Shi Matzmanu Vasibash Anachnu Ifsakno Lidrosh, Etvrimailo Matzmenu, Movila, Lebuniuchelanu, Lebeinonizatya Shelanu, Vematamikah, Movila Lekhanach Bukharim ezen Normoti Udiochan Kokashuatl Zehuchel, Khakmosha Martamikodam Anachnu, Anachom Muchanim Lamet, Vezenormota Nachnulla Mukhanim Lamet, Echelek Mizesh Anachnua Faknu, Call De Vali, Anachnu, Vehem, Aimata Batzad Shelly, Aimani Batzada Afuchli Khoraniamoraliot, Batzada Sun Israel, O Evat Hamas, Ani Look, Zelo, Ani Shuv, Lombard Shalom Lomi, Afilo Your Golano Mabal Shalomolomi. Lolo, N Hon and Yomer Aval Gamata, Aim Aimasha Mushum Im Bichal Aimas Macom and She's Mm, Le She Lot Kaele Ba Batiborota Israelit. She Nitzahon Bamovan Shalahem Hore Ali Avurenu O Mussari Avore Metzi Utka Azanasa Dari Manuel. Okay, Ma Bit Netflix.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:41

Transfer Bag?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Transfer Vegam Anachnuna said Transfer and Hoshev.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

Okay, Mid Haber and Kudakodim Chamarch Zelo Corrects. Pathological November Shani Hoshevud, Sinat Smith, Otto Antichemoti, Shemovilaf Davar, Kenyot, Ken BDS and Israel.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

Avalshov. Pathologi, but Movila Lekah, Shakeshee Mikrim, Shit, Liv Dok. She called be Corchemai, he becore others.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:21

The Laufer Klapeno. The Pashot Lawfer. The Lot the Low the Loglofer Futova. She always said again Bashiva Bogdo. No grace.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

As an Iraqid, and Tovani or the Nitali is the note, let a kena dvaru show lay them at a shamatam. Yesh a priori utoreti antichemiut, auto antichemyut, we call me lat bikorat he lilcot li yot beyakadim Khamas vehulet, anikhoshevit, anikhoshevet anichholale vin lama za korre. Aval betershanialam the kashellishmo, but beside your feasha as biglage him?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:52

Big Lajoshia Bamikreshella Paklitut or Fichliot.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:00

Lodi Apoclit. Lo, you merit a tablet shall be a long beside Lolo asibai dash and you're glad and you're not still omics and you look at Galazzio.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

Lodi and your data. Anio da shapitat's vaita sheet shavit shaved.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:32

Can of this girl.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:34

The said any lower salish to me.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:48

Uh tick trialoty men near it for pigma is that looking at the tickness garments. Can okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:36

She habikochelim he low bikoricha matarash lazhetzal yemusariote, matarash lazhetzali kbolitya dav, uh it uh piluchembanyana, shit noata nefesh and setpo, heat noat nefesh, she anikoshev shora, lich ora, we should tefek lamashumretwalimotba, mechanimash metaphere.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:19

Bigal chemashaomer sh anashim shem kitsuni basade, vehem a bicorchalim, he lobicorat be ain tova, el I bicorot bainraa, Zomercia Anachnumet Sayrim call bicorat, ke iluhi bicorot be ain Raa. Za Zerakadabara Kichani Omer.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:35

Belit ithaya, Abemochanim Biko'k Koshaltzal, Kellishumba Bicorotalzal, Valti Mechhaid Mechata Milunik Mechem Hemoshinya, Khak's, and the Khoshev Shakodzal Kherpa, Katafti Kodati Alternativi and he washly.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:08

Can can? He becauche and Iraqish, uh, Gamsh leader hagav.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:25

As an Iraq, but if you're not going to be able to do it, you can't do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:00

It's ter four.