#992 ד"ר אבנר גרוס | "אנחנו משתמשים בפי 20 יותר משאבים ממה שיש לנו" - האם ישראל מסוגלת לשרוד?

בפרק זה של הפודקאסט עו"ד תמיר דורטל מארח את ד"ר אבנר גרוס לשיחה על השלכות שינויי האקלים וההתנגשות בין כלכלה, שוק חופשי והסביבה.
האם כדור הארץ באמת מתחמם כתוצאה מפעילות אנושית, או שמדובר במחזור טבעי כפי שהיה בעידני הקרח? במהלך השיחה, ד"ר גרוס סוקר את הנתונים המדעיים המצביעים על כך ששריפת דלקים מאובנים שינתה את הרכב האטמוספירה בקצב חסר תקדים. הראיון בוחן מקרוב כיצד התלות הכלכלית של מדינות במשאבים מתכלים כמו פחם ונפט משפיעה לא רק על האקלים, אלא על הביטחון התזונתי והגיאופוליטיקה העולמית. 
האם קפיטליזם שמבוסס על צמיחה אינסופית מסוגל להתקיים בעולם בעל משאבים סופיים? וכיצד הטכנולוגיה, שלעתים גורמת לבעיה, יכולה לשמש גם כפתרון? הפודקאסט צולל לדילמות סביב פיתוח אנרגיות מתחדשות, פאנלים סולאריים, והצורך באגירת חשמל לעומת האופציה של כורים גרעיניים. אנו בוחנים מקרים מהעולם, כמו ניהול רשת החשמל באירופה והמאבק על השליטה במשאבי הטבע, אל מול האתגרים הייחודיים של מדינת ישראל. 
הפרק מציע זווית מרעננת על השיח הפוליטי סביב האקלים. מדוע דווקא הימין השמרני והשמאל הסוציאליסטי מבינים לעומק את האתגר הסביבתי, בעוד המרכז הפוליטי נוטה להתעלם? מה המשמעות של התערבות ממשלתית בשוק כדי לפתור משברים גלובליים, והאם נצליח "לשאוב" את הפחמן בחזרה לאדמה לפני שיהיה מאוחר מדי?
המאזינים יחשפו בפרק לנתונים עובדתיים ולדיון פילוסופי-כלכלי חד ומרתק, שיספק כלים אינטלקטואליים להבנת אחד מהנושאים המשפיעים ביותר על עתיד האנושות ועל יציבות הכלכלה במאה ה-21.

00:00:00 פתיחה והצגת המרואיין והנושא
00:02:46 ההיסטוריה של עידן הקרח והחקלאות
00:06:05 התחממות כדור הארץ וטביעת האצבע האנושית
00:11:32 שריפת דלקים מאובנים ותהליכים אטמוספריים
00:15:20 דמוגרפיה, אוכלוסייה וקריסת שרשראות המזון 
00:23:33 התערבות סיימון-ארליך וגבולות הקפיטליזם
00:30:42 כספים פדרליים, מדינה והתפתחות טכנולוגית
00:34:40 פאנלים סולאריים ומהפכת האנרגיה המתחדשת 
00:37:09 בעיית אגירת החשמל ורשתות באירופה
00:40:15 מדוע מדינות סוגרות כורים גרעיניים?
00:45:55 טכנולוגיות לקיבוע פחמן והחזרתו לאדמה
00:48:15 האם נטיעת יערות היא הפתרון למשבר?
00:50:50 דישון אוקיינוסים כפתרון הנדסי לאקלים
00:53:16 משבר האקלים דרך פריזמת השמאל והימין (פרימיום)
01:00:39 מדינת ישראל מול האתגר הגיאופוליטי העולמי (פרימיום)

#פודקאסט #על_המשמעות

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Doctor of the Gross, Bishville, La Chivetan Otav, Volebanachuna says the debate, Lavovet Le Gros, Et Habama, Bishville La Tigretanochelo Bitsurab Suderet, Bli, Zitnecdute Bura, Shell Debate Chirat's Maher Mahair, The Upoitan, Bishil La Tigeta Tanochello, Shegum Yeshlomar, Metzgota Consensus Amadei, Shell Lodem Tishim Vetasha Husba Madame Val, Shell Robam Muchrat. Shall and Tamir, Todalasmana, Todan, Vetamazinchel, Nukha Povasham, Hottebe Capitalist in Poem.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Top, as Bonathil Belomal Kamad Varimulay, Al Ma' Albabukrim. Kzehumi, the Karabah, I'm Blickam, okay? Ayal if you have a shah, takera Hainucatim, Imaklim, the Shariba Ulam. Gam Shamaya, as the Roshola Ulamaya Kerr, the Dafka, Shabanize, and Kerakh Shaker, and the other thing. Kar, Kol Shinhua Klimba historia, Kashula Shinhuimshelo. Okay, Nichasu Lidan Madim, Pitumfshallah Sotha Klaut, Pitumachita, Vea Tena, Ve Anavim, Gdelim, Pitomat Klimnik Dol Bateva Per, Kipitomsef Shari, Vebneadam, Lamduletutam, Echuliat Ser, Ma Pihaklait, Termizaniagid, Sipur Gana Eden, et Mole Kreti U Tolabach. Talit Perikalf Berechit. Pitomanim Etzahaim Etzadat Shham Ukotevze Bezora Pratve Hidekel Nearrochim Beze, Loya Holit Kayem Rakal Pim Shannim Lifnehen, Loya Hol, Weit Kay Loyaitim, Kimat Baulam, Temvin Loyav Shaula Datmaze Kimat. As we are Halit Kayem Rakbea Klim Shait At Sabnulav Lifna Serdelafimshanav, Pito Mayav Shal Lega Del Chita, Pitomaev Shalega del Tena, Tamvin Klim Shinagamita Sipuranoshia Honul Sapersipurim Khadashim, Lemasse Veolamishana Le Halutin, Adayom. Vanihoshev, Betema Danechaduarim, Shain Shuvpa M Rikuza Sioshaimole, Pam Big Lalenu, Shuvpama Klimish Tanelanu, Beshuvam Ne Aletl Sapersipu Hadash, Velit Modedim Shinwim Odmotulim Shekvar Korim Velkimurim, Ba Asorimakovim. Wana Kwashabisukhella money time, Kulokimerika, Likrata Shinwe dollars, the lokmo et keflev shabby vatahat, todia, pizzatatom, corona, the kmoma halak, mosatan, shesh it, befim le atleato lehet the mit Pashet, we're talking to Pelabasman, the Khwaniamu Harmidae. As Kerishemut. The Pony Hoshev, Shebaulama, about Tikshore, Babeshot, Mecabella Bowter Miday to Mat Lebashav. As a negative comment very quickly, Gilinudash, Kmashaga V Holochemara Shemeshlot is Rachel, Machotime is Rocktapoch, Vulloi Polakaki, Masu ish Tana Bekwah Vidash Loya Danule. I'm Zekre, Aniochal Kor Varim, and Hokerat Tatacheologia, Badvarim Shanius, and Hokerit Kufottaker Blikeshola Klim, as an illhayav, le cabelet, shallimaclim.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

She Losmus mushkemusmaim, shumuskeimbe Utamele, Sheminim or Shiudim eta eta Gishash Bovomerat, Yeshua Namel Dia Dam. Shaman claim at level massive.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Look as as a nigga the Snedvarim. As codem call mash and humer, uh mascorchili lotluyabis, and the lotsa richze kmoshemishwaherzarich em Lodemar, Bepaimumrim, erm Stam, and his Dugma Lotov Azov. Aval, any holim shikka belta maskochi and lots of richinweaklim. Loch Patli Anima Diff Mina Stam Sholoya Shinukum Khostagich Ara Matkal Rot Seshi Yamilhama. Kumitpanasimil Khamavimlo Zatzavaka ten. Avalonir Ali Shara Matkal Rotzemil Khamabil Tipo Sek. Shafio Teshi ye Nitzahon Barur Veshoyesheket. Koli Hadmitanun Hon, Azani Rali Zalotoze. Kshaf Bertsota Brit, Nishhtanemashu be offen dramati. Shayom, hemkenwe Milchemet measefshametem tramp, mamash, khatak be offen dramatit kolataktiv, bekomsto koteva tsaat michkar, leg lemimun, wehta sambay tamilaklim, inif selit alasaf, the built in it pass lach shoval zyagov, eda shinuit shtalo, la gid varimsuamim, embekleshle mashayaw lay adajom, aval malemadanim amerikaim ofrimachovle Europa, le vibe israelitzari, dibanul exabaknes, ulaitan a seli kloteam kipito mesha mona monadanim kahamim shibohim academia amerikait, leuropa, kolette totam, kilomitaf sherlem, la gid, la sotita machaslem, elemet hofesha mechkark mosha alembava. Az Avalanimas kimik.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Anilobefani rakomer imishnetunima dayink for kachburim, o tiksat mevaes, shiach uh uh tik shauti or baresha tot, noten kol kakar be dagesh, that varim shutlone, the khavalik, uh as bomit and zelazin Lam the gram deha damartha, it kerach, a katfatka mut, a mutramuchel malavakheti, the hoch the kara, big lama bhad I said hoch the karah.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

As call him called Nakhrimizesh Tamid Shinhuya Klim by Storya Nigram Big L Sheat Ehadla Klim Shel Kaduar, De Zelega, the Pahman Duhamzani. Who gaz Hamama Shabila Dav and Hhaimala Planeta Olaam Kofe? Khayavim Kamut Mesu Yamti Menu Shomerk Mohamamafim, Kshuole, Nahumithamim, Kshu Yorda Nachukarim, Kshayut Kufot Kerh with Hufot Hamot, the Tamid Kirikusani, Allah, or Yahad. Magorem, Migvan Gourmim, Areigash, Shinuim Bashemesh, Kerashenames, Okianusim Shazazim, the Korea Offensive E. Aval, I've got Masival Shinouya Klim. Okay? Lama, I'm not going to be able to do that. Sha's time atmosphere, but Nik Barbecue Tosham, the Kirle Atlant, the Motzita Kolbe Hazara, Lobia Srotal Fashionim, Fashim Kmochinimavar, Ela be as rotanim, the Sukh Krisadzmanim Shia Planeta Lomekira, evolution of the same. Call Shar Ghim Lighthamut Law Mamim has Hamaskana Shell Mad Anekadura Ares, Kareg, Lefimash, Hisha Adam, Goremut Kadura. Okay, Maya Maharani Lord, I'm Negaled Varim Hadashim, Aval Nachholegazav and the Mr. Shekh, Lefnesh Israel Yot Mil Hamab Iran. Okay, Kavot Shu mit Yah, as another, Shimak or Khartowa, Klimago, and Pitov Shesh, Terbogeretwe, Mamikala Khatot, the Karega Mad Consensus Made Sasham. As as Machina Zotti, and Hoshev Tad Derek, Moshan Huayom, Tsorhim Yo Tervio Term Shimotervio Terya, the Husia Tamshali Dolbo Tokas, and the other thing. So, I think that's a very important thing as a Shimahu, the Russia, Ukraine, the Shinouya Klimbi Ukraine, and the other thing. The catastrophe, a khadium.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Gam le corach, and Gamma technologies, Goroman, Drumkele, the Gamma Khita, the Basar Matubat, as Lonic Tarre, Bahita, Hillary, Kilo and Trico, and Kilo Shell Basar Bakar, Maimutor, Kama Hita, the Bemeth built in it.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Ken Kirken, as Bonatrime, the Dafka Mayan Mash, and it's a mashalkatze dugmakhtana. Tachov, imata lodimata shure biologia, shayusamim kazeidakim alzalachat petri kazotti, venotnimla mdolve mgdelim de lingdim. Makorekshitzalachat shheshlashamit kolahem, ksheidakim alzalachat, mgdelimsof, makure matai su Mataishu M Korsim, Metim Kim C Mut Kola Mashabim, canatawatum gdimdelimata kol min haiba ulam simar sade, and coloxarimba sadeh, my krashig mu igme igam ruaakzarim, cross, asia olao labe vatahhat, exponentialit, mashabim korreset Shabne Adam, Hamin Kehla Minim, Fahot Ad Kamashana Hudim Kareg. The Gamlanuk Shigam Rua Mashabim, Nishame Mashabim Yo Termai Hermik with Had Shutam, Nakukare exponential, and milliardshavra, milliard a young, mashabim, but technology mhikai takira, or toizo, Yothel, as the Makika Takir, Klomarin, Ms. Mashabim, Yoter.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Shikulima Kalkalim Kaliman left Khalim Gamalot Vahim, Ther Tekamut Frotta Barzel Shesh Badama, Le Ulam Frot and Safe Share Kano Hishel and Lehida Kamut Namuch, Meluta Hipusim by Budda. Avalchera Vda, Shamaya Srim Rathut Sumash Musha Barzel, Plada, Reserve Barzella Muchot, Gedlup Picama. Kahiragam Bemikrash reservated aluminium, dil, Vishmashabim Tivim Safim. Kavokel Shanim Shimushartim Hoshit V Kilukel is Gamberton Hos, the Gambe Hamon Hoshit Bemelachoto Hiovel, Hyo Reservat and Hoshit, the Lot Pishlosha, Mikfishala. Reservaton Hoshit Shavu Bushnatish invitation. As a barbecue X, Kavor Sam Hamashani, Mishano, Shnakes, the Cavor, Otis Hamashani Mishlenu, Camoma, Uchpello, Arba X, Arb is no Arbeta Hoshet, Mimash Abit, I stream. Absurd Metorafazpote Avidishakel Kalit, the Gish, it Galabi Tervucha Hokal Keranam. Simon, the Mumhele Kutasviva, Lana, Polerlich, Simon, Bhakala Tana Azot, Hamishama Shabim Tivim, Shai Riv Herba, Lotal Munichimre, the Meshikolosman Shai Riv Herbo, Erz Vekvutash Madame Vita Vito, the Lorakse Bimbihad, uh Erchla Mirad, Lorotosman, Shab Mashab Erchlayrad, Bidulimati that the student lifekama shavuot, the sipurmeule.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Aval Ehrlich Ta'a, Beadir, Wugami Marlze Aheze, U Metlif Nesha, Wamaralze, Shizata Uchelo, Shulatzarih, Yot Kolka Gevla Sotita I Tarvuta Zotti, Agov Earlich the Sipumanianki game colo, tafochelo le risun veze, alomatos prati, asbua benadam ulo, benadama ki aklimist. Aklimis, alomatosprati, mar shuta, bemota. Uma march ulatza ihla sota itarvuta zoti, ya primature, velobu girma speakweze. Kilama, ulatzihlatin, wamarze the ikraj natal pime. Bema erdihtaalemase. Maumrima nahwan shasviva uta ulota abba ikaron, kiyamashabim mit kalim, yesh kamut, mukbelethoshit, ken ken ken. Ha kamuta neftba mai mukbelet, ilomit khadesh kolazman, mukbelet, mataishui, ilokhla miljoneshia nim lit khesh. Butamishta mashbab srochani mit Matai Shui Gamer. Utahabazman, wamesh natal pime, zeloikrebish natal pime, they krexat your termuhab, they krebbe often a khimashuha shab, they kre terele at the same time. Aval kol palm lisgor eta kiluyash gvulkama mokta holach forbishwin nehoshet, wu lize na hole nakhoshavala gimba okianus, zelonachon, kiemolhimit mati in vimghab.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Shne gid Yalumim, a lumim add Nagilfnehim, a youraumim TVm, shrukah million that's a dell, leb diamond, shigam sheri sko at meh alum boram tri scootze palm rate is the shame kite to lehati may rock, kazella shekavidla, butabat, mata wow, that she ri. I am colo like don't rockze as a man shall I'm a tao sela asab animaski kilo.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Ma bada kvaloyomana husim zova the gimsanahuhlimaza salmon shenirav to the varatilkulam z me brichot, the kvalo dago tobokanuski enoto, talo tsliak. Has anikhoshevshe be dvarimisuyemanahunatsiak lim tzojzehem khalufho technologiot, a valyesh dvarim shem me ever le kosher anesiyash el kaduar. Absolut dafka, l'homashavel absolittapoleta khutza. Z'hmolola sofita zevil, mearichov, ken zekza dome, the ta ina klim is tan elika ken a tatzarih la tetel za ta dat, asia pitaron technologi mtashkia bo, baga bata m takivim ba imkala klim, ba imgalat varima ele. Eh, ekani me kata atmosfera mea pachman shoothal suc, echani, meyat, solelale, girat energia, but le shamolechsef ba shanima.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Kesef capitalistamra, to marete. Eh, Lorak, biglal taktiv shel team, khavimhashmalim, ne you terve turn of team. Lorak bigulze. Bebam, shum Tamritim Rhiv Khmalim, and Shimbotim, Khavim Khmalim, Keshlem Tokot Sous, ki Lotadlek, ki Keshlem Kochit Paretz, ki Besibot, Kimra Beshanim, Lodor Shim Musakimat, Haval Hadmash uh Elon Musk Aklimist, to bad o Abava, Tatvaro, bad like deal comes, should Halimkor, but Tesla. Nah, she loved, she loves a colour academia, smallit negada technologia, negada negada, negated sixuga dam, Latva Kov. Nicole.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Okay, Avani, uh some to come in shiny academia smallanit, any loboty rak smallanit, which is the odd political, sinusekeeping, the mashwish, and the shimming for it, I've been holly shlock, and then we're gonna be able to get a little bit of a very good thing. Small Yamin Mirkaz, Dati Hiloni, Masotti, Kim At Bekola, Kwutzotele, Ma'al Shishim, Amushem Lamadash, Shinoa Klimitra Shim, Shem Hoshim, and Venal. The top priority, we can small by Aminovel, the local negative climate, and small. Okay, as a sea time atmosphere, and we have to do this.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Okay, as interest, and then we're going to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

A monarch, I'm not going to be able to bring it. Piktova. Matai Shugamagazi Yeakwariya Karv at Tsarichli itmodedi ma Shinhuim Shekurim, Ken A Tsichliv notat Gamba Israel, Talocholika Kotlanetza. Toshov sh a metro Israeli boom shot a metro betelav. Yahooli o show the stream shanahimiushan baolambian hype.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

And we told me. Lolivnot.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Love.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Lollivnote project, la forza tomi, le et um lol.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Avalamata omer is a kimba to call Kahme Uka, Shanahukov Mitkarvimla technologia bakon. Uh, Aval Tachov Kama Shanim Kahnu Bachombe Tel Avim, Tahborati Burit Bera Mash le Ayratila Giv New Delhi of the New Delhi Sha Maya Tetovami Shelano, Paph.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

The uh uh Odrighov Autonomy, Gami Odrig is a load hodish, a loud Hameshanim, a gear vad, the holokatafiloch n plus, or sefotra, or sefoto, be kev, Thborati Burita Hitova, Alakvish of Odrighanimanashim Kvar, Mamash prototypes, mit Kabin.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Nahon, as kilo, Ulaya Yom the stuff me to Pash Livinotto to Latrimisman, but shovim my energy mit Kadesh, as or Shloshim Shana Tagidli, Tov, Kvaroshava Livinotto Takeshan with Tatatata as I oh Nagid, Germanim Nagid. Ah, Peru Deh the Kim V. Ken, Ken Ken, Rikavon Shelaetz, Alleshano Share, a col Jose Lachen Oigivald. Ken, Lachen Kri Shtilati Arochi Mitsuyanet, Yeshla Gamarbechis Ronotki, Machika Pahman Lizman Kazar. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

No, the Mitos Ayruka, Lora Ayruka.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Sarah or Todavan? Sarah and Buclumas, Midbarasara Lom Shanaikelo, Ulose Clum. Lolo Kehlo Note. Lomzik. Hayar Bagashu nichhat, Wechliotle Michre Pachman, Shia Kola Avira, Tambinas Karegao Ose Taf Kidwara Gil, Mashirbel Kakat Khz. Gamlo, kibe Khamzan Zelorik millioneshim, gameta correkha ya, bonagid, Isha Khamtsan le Alfanimakovotlin Shom altida Golo Shannel Hashum Dav. Okay. Aval Zelo, Haval Pahman, Thah Zot Davka, Le Omekadama, Magarim Geologim, Kiot Setauto Ben Schlosmot Million Shana, Tatah Zero Tola R Nakim Shelazi atikim Befnim. Loma speak lem comotahze, Omekayam. Le Omekakarka, Zeshanoyum Cole Mineral Not Lemashal, Hadad Vim Shani Vedele Metzlize Ba at sotle Mashal. Bagashtan Otelem Kzatohel, Mgdelotbe Shavuot. Barzel Zarhan, Lo Azem Mineralim. Hashem plus mineralim. Okay. Mash B Yamim, the hot at the rot Bauchianus, Sufata Vacret Mineralim, the webinar of the rot, mouse a prichodele, and look hot atmosphere, and we have to get a lot of the other. As Elecolving Pitono, Pitonot Haklaim, the Olam Superman Haklaim, Slaim K Tushim Bakarka, and the Shimetzmahim, the Gamekhaushana Husimet Sleno, the mineralim, the sea time and atmosphere, and the other thing.