#1034 עו"ד דוד ברלינר | "הדין היה יכול להתיר נז"א גבוה יותר" - האם צה"ל כובל את עצמו?

בפרק זה של הפודקאסט עו"ד תמיר דורטל מארח את עו"ד דוד ברלינר, מרצה מן החוץ בקריה האקדמית אונו ומומחה למשפט בינלאומי, לשיחה על המושג המורכב "נזק אגבי" (נז"א) בדיני לחימה ועל מערך ההסברה הישראלי. 
הראיון צולל לעומק הדילמות המוסריות והמשפטיות שאיתן מתמודד צה"ל בלחימה בשטח עירוני צפוף, על רקע הסרט התיעודי "נז"א" שהופץ לאחרונה וגרר ביקורת עולמית חריפה כלפי ישראל. האם ישראל באמת מבצעת חישובים קרים ומתרגטת אזרחים כפי שנטען בסרט, או שהמושג נז"א נועד למעשה להגן עליהם? עו"ד ברלינר מסביר בשפה בהירה את ארבעת העקרונות המרכזיים של דיני המלחמה: אבחנה, מידתיות, אמצעי זהירות והגנה על אובייקטים מיוחדים. דרך הדוגמאות המוצגות, אנו נחשפים לאופן שבו קציני מודיעין ומפקדים בצה"ל מקבלים החלטות בזמן אמת, וכיצד שאיפת צה"ל למזער פגיעה בבלתי מעורבים גורמת לעיתים קרובות לביטול פעולות מבצעיות ואף להחמצת הזדמנויות חיסול של בכירי טרור, כמו במקרה של הנהגת חמאס ב-2003.
בנוסף, עולות בשיחה שאלות קשות ונוקבות: מה המשמעות המשפטית של בחירת חמאס להשתמש באזרחים כמגנים אנושיים? כיצד הניסיון לעמוד בחוק הבינלאומי דווקא הפך את צה"ל לצבא בעל יכולות מודיעין ופיתוחי טכנולוגיה חסרי תקדים? 
בחלקו השני של הפרק, השיחה עוברת לנתח את אחד הכישלונות הגדולים של ישראל: זירת ההסברה. נדון בשאלה מדוע מדינה עם צבא כה חזק אינה מצליחה לספר את הסיפור שלה בעולם? למה דובר צה"ל נאלץ להתמודד עם מדיניות חוץ? ומדוע סדרות טלוויזיה כמו "פאודה" עושות למען הנרטיב הישראלי יותר מאשר משרדי הממשלה? מאזיני הפרק יקבלו כלים חדים להבנת שדה הקרב המשפטי והתודעתי בו מתנהלת מדינת ישראל.

00:00:00 מהו באמת המושג נזק אגבי בדיני לחימה
00:01:36 עקרון ההבחנה וזיהוי מטרות צבאיות 
00:04:07 תפקיד קציני המודיעין באישור ותכנון מטרות
00:08:44 עקרון המידתיות: לשקול תועלת צבאית מול נזק
00:11:09 עקרון אמצעי הזהירות וביטול תקיפות בגלל אזרחים
00:15:08 מי מקבל את ההחלטה הסופית על תקיפה בצה"ל
00:20:49 חמאס ופשע המלחמה של שימוש במגנים אנושיים
00:23:44 כיצד החוק הבינלאומי שדרג את הטכנולוגיה של צה"ל
00:27:32 משמעת צבאית: למה באמת נועדו דיני המלחמה
00:29:27 הפער הטרגי בין תכנון מוקפד לתוצאה בשטח
00:32:33 ההתמודדות התקשורתית עם סרט הנז"א (פרימיום)
00:36:27 המחדל ההסברתי וכישלון הנרטיב הישראלי (פרימיום)
00:40:19 מה אפשר ללמוד מהנרטיב של סדרת פאודה (פרימיום)
00:44:59 מדוע החברה האזרחית צריכה לנהל את ההסברה (פרימיום)

#פודקאסט #על_המשמעות

לתמיכה בכח התערבות - גוף האקטיביזם של על המשמעות: https://www.peach-in.com/cmp/j4l1xeyiq 

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Assert Nazagarbe in the Gambaola or Bemod Genuim, the Manu Bolich Badzhville, the Sokbono Sazan Naza, the Leverot Omek, Vishitanu, David Berliner, Martim Hotemit Ono, the Gamish Radavosh Nam Bashward Veshello, Baik Sherim are Khavim Shell Naza. Shalom, Shalom Tamir. Tovas, but Benomi, Mahutello, Mazaravar.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Naza Bakhela seret as Balamochanumi, we come to him, Lord Israel, Cola, Tswata Mahavim, the Bidukkafuh, Mimashereet, Betzamasseret, Mihavenki, Vihol, Israel, Bodek Kam Izahim to Faim and Fagav Kilometer Get Izahim, and Naza Ubidu Kafu, Naza Rashad Nezekagavi, Biduk no Ad Kedilish Mora Ezrahim Clomar, the Klimishpati, or the Munach Mishpati, Azulahikolov, Lamoche Amaterat's Maihukit. Vasucha Lehaven Matarot is a chyot, Ola Israhim. Com Matarat Sweithulaliot Oben Adam, Tom Michabel, Lochem, O Echoliot Object Tsvait. Tilim Tilim, Zehot Mifkadat Svait, the Holiot Mosanamlach, Gamma Bite, Wayao Lai byte is achavyotashamataratzvait.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Zebetzima Zirbuf Shelaza, Nesal Smacha Nachha, she did the cab alphabetimakhrim, shabikol byte shamlach.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

No, Shamaze Holiot by the Pirmineraval, be called by the Shamlach.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

The Aframitalata Seratal Mabu Holz of Taitashama Betim and Achnue.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Avalomatarotte Hagar. As another stemse, the Lomershav at Kifamush, Zomerse Imatokefta Benadam, Shoninsa Binanazabayom, as Nazatsafushi Yelcha.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

The Mazov Dod, the law and poor Zamanomativ. The Simle Stemesra, Simlis Verbaim, Simlis Had, Simleve Ephes.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Tidash Imatatokev, Kazot, Zanazekavishigramcha, Zamida, Hashab, Zoverala, Zoverala Lamfakim, Zoverala and Kablachatot, the Nazash Hameshmot, Lorotis, America, Mulaya Holim.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

His Balanagelano Alpine, Nergimhadito, Rakistrim is Rahim.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Muhammad Shall go as a Palestinian Tanusha Yutishim, Augim. Albitoham Verza Alasrot Michablim Shinirgu. Kumara Yulcha Kanere a Srot Mechabim Shenirgu. A Palestini Shatam Mita Ber al Kama Palestinium Rim, as Gam Tschimizilla Kartberg von Gwalbessimazim de Bruza, Vitishimugim. Shatamer Tishim or Gimbitoham, a sort Michablim, ashart another shall come ashaviz the Hadley had another shall Kimat Hadley had the Palestinian Zochirua Ba Milhamazuilastini Tanulikaze Nazar Gav.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

As a mammokish, ma'am, Machusia, and Mihavana, Mr. Trimhusia, Mzelo Telano, Reshut, Muchlet, La Rogotam, Vyasha, Achai, Lamavichi Zahim, the Henki, Nimtan Babinimizim.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Okay, the gam Zodmashushigam Binamil Khamam Modern Masheloya, Pam Shena Nukulkayometicona Diot, Shibet and Gami Matadashini, Lomakinamilhama, Supe, Mimchaken Lakida Dinamilhama, if Shaladuna Imzenachono Lonochon, Aval Bon Ze Zaksiomazen, Nikodata Mutashala Nakayombe Dinamilhama Venomim. As Nutima Nochne Ekonot Hashovim Madavarze, Econom's economy that you have sir Mutaha, Shav the Haven or Rogamhaberze. Etatuelet Tatsveta Shirava concretit Chetitsmachlicha Mirgata Michabel, aze, Lemulhan Nezekabishoremha, Shahim Muhammadef Mul Yelid.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

No, as Muhammadefit smoke is a Kazha who shotafbarigatamshell elf time as Tavabi Mahad, the Annezekimino Modgadol. The hen yened Imkolacovod, the Twilight is the toilet low toilet. The Nezekagavish no Holma Larjutas Menu.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Nohon the Borushikosha Mikabelu, Yuter Bahir, the Borushimahat Hanunis, the Lokmote, Tatspitan Shelhamas, or Mimem Shelhamas. Borush the Shumidragvi, Khoshata or Lebedogot, Takilo, a Holy Borgam Nezekagavi, Gavoyatel. Nohon Aze Zekonasheni, Vaz, Vetimanese Kagavish, Bodeko Totamida, Tamidomer Tov, uh Kamzafuaza, Amuli Schol, Zemulze, the Simotamalamus Namilagitova Nezek Mihabelaza, Gam Srimanashim, the Muzakla Ogoto. Kiatoele Tatsweit Shetigaremi, Shavalita Srimazachimele, Nahon. Aval, Zelomos Pikiesh, Mutakarashlish, Vebenay and Hosh Utechashov, and the Dashita Middle Amid, and the Heshev's Motkasha, Mod Subjectivity. Nagid Ichesenoir, N Tatadogmat, Omer Shavigam Ham Hamishiman Him Yarguze, Zadim Seder. Tomorazalitkofashabalash Kulamba Mito Tishanim. Tachakella Bokir, Vazbim Com Hamishimiladim Yuluchama Sara Dim. Ashab Bamidati, Gamham Shimiladim, atom made the Gamasara Dim. Tafits Bayom Sheshka Pochot Naza. Vebish Patrocutem Tsh Gatophutta. No, as both the Zikata Beta Mishwata Israel, Salanu Kama Mifanimpo Bamidatut, Amidat by Mishwata Binumi Lozia Midatudba Mishpatrokita Israel can teshiv geatoputa. The Holy Temte is the Holotez Manims a Holota Chat Tapilashav Tzaime. Shows the Barushes and Modus Bakeshali Fim Kalkalatimushimishha Comile, Fadiko Israel Lastaken, and Yomir Fadikot Kizebeta, Fim Israel Kulkachnizara, Beserat Nazamashimutanoshanahilo metagitimizah, Israel Kulkachnizara, Bavarche, Pulotnik Shelov, the Barush, the Murray Kata.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Achulbakata Mash Bashanach on a chon, or or tippalifne, time the Honch, Tobah. Cola Nagat Kama Sesvab Makovad, Emo of Titina Kmote His Bala, Kmote Nasralla as Kulamitin, the begash and hobedy water palel with a header layad Kulam Sardo, Afahanifta.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

If Tsatita Hedrazia, Ki Kivola Din, Aval Tomere Nachon, Avalishta Mikrima Ayata Mikri Mod for some shell in a Gathamasit can serve Alpamichelosh. Lorigromazekula, Ratita Lovit Colonagat Hamas, we fishwash at a call. Zek var Zek kilo M T zero to Tomir Bonidaek, Aval Zeville Lekislonopula, Vizek ormash elom Rio, Kamayasha Bamil Hamashaya and Vim Shapusemu, Pusamubaitunut as Bisrelayom, and Shush is Relayom, Pusamal Khadma Mihabim Shhafbe Mahatifashpahad Vivas. Aval Ze Imalit, Zeikronashlish. But I live solids, Lagidez, yes lifemiatimish patim, shot nimitiasut, gummifamim gam Rainugam, Dovertza Lotigam Sutonim. If I gamatayasehol, atasekolagid the gum visitovish pose, anilo. Gam gamloish tashikul datazi. Savia pam Vikohim in Michael Zeven Besofivat Varib. Come on Nilomaskimitomusaritu layaval Anipam. Lamalor gim. Womerit Basaf Atayasazi. The Mzika Utsichanim Zebalaila. Shab Imla Imula Holoshon. Asha, Tada, Nahuyholim and Ivatali Tatzven, Zekal, Ketomer B serbasof Michavela Zagamehole Laugo de Tayim Shelanu. Ken Aval Mitsacheni and Tirhbe Mechuishant of Balaila, V Anitir Bahavorot Palm, Vigamla Tayas, Vigam, Le Mishma Khorav, Yesh Tasamhut Levatel Velagidani Aniloh, Kieshpo Nazov Kaniroeta, Tanashimele Bananilore. Azesha Bimdaga B Gorme Kabalatahot Kolmata overat B nine. The Lobenadamihad Machrit Vashaverbe nine Veshha Baletov Kidim Shoningam. Kizya Holiot, me, Otsimishpatim, the Holiotte, Gomeshe, Kshima Matashola, Matak, Shovimvan, Amodin, Kitsu, our Begomim, we colochomele, Yahholasim Regal ve la torta dabarze. Klomazalih, me odmot, sadur, the gama shoalash, makilose, Imechashiv, the Baushe, Yespo, Al Colmatara, Yeshha Nashim, She Gamikmaquze, Gam Yeshimah Hakakaladavazi.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Meshab Besumovans, the Mavilitzot, Tovot, the M Vilto Tot, Shelasuneter, the Mavil to Totchel, Et Mukara Kilo. So, Lomit Yudim, Lope Chamuel Alpine Kreme, Shall Insipuremikre, the Hamakabel Badao Chel Tishim.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

I gave the Vish Lodano love, the Naskirto object in Zahim Shlemagam you headed. As game of the case, I'm going to go to the house at the film as a Ms. Gadim and Vim Kellavan and Yomata Belumia class, as a Bicarbate Holim, or Dvarim and Nilvimlawa the ambulance in Vikole, Aval Nahon. Mod Machivim Z Holy Machelbate Sefer, Lele Mitcane Um, Le Colmid Verim, Vazium Nazas, Techle Lagito Vani Law, If Gabi Mashu, Nazaz the Nezek Kivikos Vivati, Azekwar Nezekim, Azishlimatarak, Leadsefer, Vabizefer Lulli Paga, Azulabigazib, Litbur, Shemaximalo, Veloc Batal, Shell Cabratot, Ilika Shellat Masy, Betan Elano, a Monikrim Shallon, Shell Zebore Mikre, Boucher Kapash Lojou, Bushapash. Aval and Basserat in Manim Vinokamhaven, the Not Basserat Mkilu Eneram, Ekilu Zafilu Nishmasha Mashiki, Viholmi Targetim Ezrahim. She Iran Shalakat Tim, Bishlachot Tamal Tel Aviv, Irozali Target Ezrahim, Osha Hamas, O Hizbalay or Im Al Khifa, Al Lomitargetimizim, and Lomdubaral Naza, Nazaze Latsvoche Omrim Anachumbihabnim Akverak alhamim, Achvarakalmehablim, Haksh Lochamim, Aile, or Mihablimele, Mr. Trimbu Khlusiazakit, Agav Gamzelom de Brimba Baser Kukhmaskirmize Mishpat, Aval Lo Lomazi, the Shem Michabli Hamas Osim Pesham Milham Mod Hammu, Shem Shim, Mistam Shimbe Maganim Minoshim, and Mr. Trimbito Hussiashit Kiemyodim Shizyagenalem, Haitime Raita, Pisema Shavo, Er Shem Hamas or M Yeled Biaza, Notel Volhito Barkov, Kyodashal Loveledze. Okay, Mishtam Shimbe Maganim Minoshim, Vizapesha Mihama Pesha Mihama Mothamu, K shelatsmo, Balovem Lom the Brim. Asha Michabamas, Imi Shotsir Naza Tir Gavo, Zem. Kim is the Trimito Lucia, Kim Mistom Shimbem Kimaganiminoshim, Vem El Shotanaza Nala Shela Mat Sal, Vesov, Yeshha, Masha Din Materiha, okay, we always gamesh mid. Mitoham Sedal Godel Shell Shrim Sloshimelef Luhamim Havre Hamas Tamedal Naza Shell Uli Srim Shloshim Elefish Zenaza mod Namukh Shell Shelezrahim. Shihad. Ken Bergen. Vigamshov, Shama Lefahim, Ashelagam Mimhlilim, Kim Shama, at Call Mishimitahatil Legil Ms. Anahadim Hamas Gamish Tamish be dimnich, we've been sloshishre, the pull out Milchamtiot.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Gamanakh, Gamanakhamas, Hashu Lama. Nahon, Nahon, the Lozha Logita Homimlo, yes, been batholora, Uishilakem Tva.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

As Iom Mumri, Vegamishamachum the bot Migil Khamesra, Vegama Tsava, Yomatalomge, Mitahadish Mulasra Mathe Nahon. Aval and Yomer She Hamas, or Shimber Palestini Sofir, Tanishimus, Colmish Mitah Legimus, Commission Algil Mussam, Gamimolochem, Sofrimotokez. Zenera Gam Gamita Filuta Tayazoti. Bauru Sheshabe Dwarimshe Tsal Omedina, Machitashe, Lotokfim, Yahog Nasala, Gamba Nezeka Gavishel Hameshmut. And you are so cool is the Muche Nasala Lodova, Kenaval, Ehakulism. Gamimata Holatirze. Attackovemat Nazanim Hotuter. We should talk odd modzair.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Sal Zahirki Kizami Dinut.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Okay, and you should have Baushit Sal, Meod Modzair, the Bausha and Naza Shulokiah, Mod Nukha Nagitkaha, Hadinaya Holatir, Naza Gwayoter, I was gonna send her Ani Ani Hoshigam Yatsumize to Not Mod Gvoim Clay Pam and Nagitka Shik Therzman. Ken Ma Mutar Ma Matem Lamatan Secnum a Pitochum Technologim Sha Yotsub Vigala Davarze V Zurech Belitsumodin Kulkartov, Nagitva Serat Medevrize, Ken had Bapomim Shikuma serata omer can any alcohol dira, and your deakamaze shama, Kamanashim, Zomer Mazomerbetz and Zomer Alcald Dira, Tilda Kamanashim Garim Shama. The Kamanashimishama, Zemodin Mitoff. Imishate Holotelle, init Holotelle. Zimodin Shata Faterke Mitsorik. Ivatak Moiran Shavlodia, Maftizhav, eh one of Titzitakol, Talotzik Latamodinaze, Talotzik Attagano, Fatakalima Technologim, Shit Nulecha, La Sotavaraz. Beregosto Mirtova ni Lochole Nazavirvo, andi Lochole Target, Ani Locholche Yargo Termidazochim as the ni lovesh and Babindian Farmazanimsa, and you gam with Bazi Dira Nimsa, Kadesh and Uh Kofta Dira specific Velo Christ Tabinian. Atatsirik, Nishapel Ganta Pitochim, uh Modi Nimsilcha, Time Tema Modinim Shilcha, Vegamit Holota Kifashelcha, Atamet Sir Tili Masha Varboter Midduakim. Ta Kolamacha, Tswishelha, Mod Mishadreg, Vasta Hol Gambiran, Nevatapolo Beto, Varboter Midduakot, Vegamet the Ferrothalitzavato Veter. Kivemet and Nagitkaha, Anahu Shwima Yom, Sharbemid Dinamil Khamad, the Kilo Sichalaze, Smolanim, Shwimbeze Fulcoto Fulkut Europa, Shilo Melhamakosim Shana, V Dorfimaleno. Abemidinamil Khaman, Nutsu, Ali Dami Dinote, Lefnemikhamotolla. Kekronotele ne Lolachwim. Aze Kfor Benal Tim Europa, Lorotshia Gutatim, as the Barosheloyaz, Khalal Kulam Zahalalash Dirai, She Shelor Gimota, Avalapo interesse, Atarotse Lones Bismanchau, or Bizab Bismilhama. Ze Lorak Novyami Shikulemusar, Zenoveami Helutova, Vem Mivtayut, Love Del Kenslikala, Dugma Zeval, Imhamas Loyuskimbe La Nosi Lotot Not Hamesh, Emeuga Mihalim Mikbosh Sisei Helavir, Bashvil October. Yocholimit Kadem, Vashata, Mechabele M Shufzima Vatapitom Zeve Mathile Nos, Ve Az Roeshalalva, Tamathil, Lakarchalva, Zoito Laza, Arastata Kafash. Galcha Lutova, Lorotin Biza, Lorotum Shahim Shem Askube Biza, as the Arbemid Dinamil Khama Atal Gamroce, Yeshat Tachmoshet Mesuemet, Atal Lorotzel Basbesta Tachmoshet Al Ezrahim, Alla Yarkanche Mukhertayarko, Tarot Shakadush, Tarugitam Kabel, Velota Yarkan. As a mere as the Arbemid Dinamil Khamaele em Nutsuletovatzvot at Svaot Ratsotam, Lomusariot, Shav Ashikulim Shelatsava, and Yesh Mikvanchulumidamaz, the Holod Musarim, the Holot Saim, Ehalotve Vehikule, we called Verimelabasov Miturgamim Le Midinio, Chimiturgamim Lepkudot, Shavamodomer Tobaniashab Satesh Lemushal. Borushibate Shavata Belevanon or Beazatagamweze, Pamihotela Shotz Mahayate, Vyompochot, Gameguni, Kishapogam Shikulim, Midini, Veloak, Shikulim, Tsaim, V Vegamen Hasimitoha Davaz, Gamishula Naza. Vazimodish Tomotov and Yah Shav Lorotinazabichal. The Bisad Legitimi.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Kabinet you name it. Tobana, the Technol Bitso, to Holimot Amunimbra Technon, Villa Bitso Bafal, Bitobafal Hot Technol Pidamudina, the Bual, Mushum Tlemala, Shoshka Mutlemata, Pitomish Pizoshum as a Mishu, Pitum.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Basov, Imata Nagida Nirote, Dokka Hakak Mishpatitaim, Tifat Mataram, Soemetaku Kito La. Bafala Nilo, Amur is Takela Latoza, and the Amuristakella Tihnun, the rotashikulim manitunimshamdu, Lafayed, Bismanshu, Kebeletachlata, Vim Bitoch, Mito Alpsis and Kibeleta Etahlata Anchona. Shaviholioche Pitom Nihesu, O de Zahim, Shelodanolem, Nihasupitomavine Pitom, Achushama Msbatimuled, Vushama Otramasraish. As the Holchanazash before I take Wyoter, Pinat Dinamilhama, the low relevant. Nimsaken and Kim Shia, we cabalata with Mammi Hama, the medi pyramida. Kemlachen, Bemeta Mato Saakol Shanafall in the Gabsan Secala Totsa.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Nagidgratemer Kite can delta and the Hot Microsoft Molashnia, a Gramala Sakatesh, um Bekfar canum in Tonakon, Big Rosh Bonergo, a Kamathotrachim Afabo shall time out the katash monitarian. No, you can shimkele neorim fit.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Ma Bidia, can ma matsa manyan pa mim, gamitzaim, atita sel, Michabenusuya Totzeldacham Hassel Mihabeleza Hussal, as that Michabellezha Husal, we gamiprinata nazha, Tsalve Metzelemet Kam Shadanaza, Bemet Rotzeliv Gwa Ragba Michablim, Ragba Luchamim. Veloze Gaba Ezahim, Azugam Shaper Tsmov, the Gamerla Machaman Mikodamala, Shipurim Technologium Notsoim Bikota Davarase. Ata Vikuota Davaza at a closm, Tsalvaru Shalohima, Tsalga Mod Mishapert's movot in Pahot Naza, but Hisulima Holim Barotwaim, and Naza, and the Matsichla Gale Tot Nedot with the Hisulum Family Naza Bichalo, Naza Meod Modana, Kitzlachta L Shop Modita Holochikh, the Holocha Hakka Holstamus Rabimus.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

But two, as a mashmood plus, and we have to do it.